Ruth Dale 0:02
Hello, you're listening to the Behaviour Change Marketing Bootcamp podcast. I'm your host Ruth Dale and in today's episode we focus in on social proof, how to use it, what it is when to use it with some great case studies. And we also talk about earthquakes, tornadoes, the TV programme, the bear, and even a bit of Gordon Ramsay. That's because I'm joined by Jen Clinehens. Jen is the author of Choice Hacking, and she also runs the podcast Choice Hacking, and you can follow her on Tik Tok under Choice Hacking. She is an incredible marketer, and we were so delighted to have her join us. You will be inspired, there is loads to learn in this one and all the tips are really applicable. So get your pen and paper out. Let's dive in.
Ruth Dale 0:49
Just before we get started, quick heads up. The final behaviour change Marketing Boot Camp for 2023 is on the 13th of December, as always limited spots. So head over to www.behaviourchange.marketing to grab your spot.
Ruth Dale 1:08
Hello, today we're welcoming into the studio, Jen Clinehens. Jen is the author of Choice Hacking. She runs an incredible podcast called Choice Hacking and newsletter called Choice Hacking, we've had her on the podcast before as she is absolutely an expert in the field of behavioural science and marketing. So we're so happy to welcome her back. Hello, Jen.
Jen Clinehens 1:30
Hi, thanks for having me.
Ruth Dale 1:31
Oh, no, it's our pleasure. And the reason we reached out to Jen is because she did this most incredible episode on social proof. And this comes up a lot in our training. And also, of course, in all of our work. And in this episode, I'm not going to go into it. Now I'm gonna let Jen explain it. But it's absolutely everyone worth listening to. Because Jen just explained social proof in context of social norms. But how can you use them in marketing in something like 10 minutes, and it's just such a standout episode. But even those couple of years old, I still remember it. So I asked Jen to come on to talk about the social proof itself, because to be honest, she's the best. So I'm going to hand over to Jen and say, Jen, please, can you start by sort of telling us a little bit about what inspired you about that episode, and just explain what social proof is?
Jen Clinehens 2:19
Sure. So that episode is, I think one of my favourites for two reasons.
Jen Clinehens 2:23
One, it's an excuse to use a clip from Mean Girls movies to talk about social norms. Is an AWESOME movie. If people listening have not seen it, you should watch Mean Girls, but if you don't know about Mean Girls is basically it was based on a book actually a nonfiction book about sort of social structures for girls in high schools. So what is a social norm for you know, girls in high school, and there's a famous clip from you know, Mean Girls where they say things like, you know, on Wednesdays, we wear pink.
Jen Clinehens 2:51
Alright, so these things that they do as a group to signal that they are a group together to signal who's outside of their group, who's in the group. So I thought it was really fascinating.
Jen Clinehens 3:01
And actually, the original book, I think it's called Queen Bees and Wannabes is the book that it's based on, broke down all these sort of different approaches to social norms in that high school structure. And then the movie are, you know, obviously, it's like a comedic movie. But I think it did bring through a lot of those interesting sort of, I guess, you could call them like anthropological studies of, you know, the American high school, you know, female experience. And I just thought that was so interesting from the perspective of behavioural science and marketing, because, you know, if you think about social norms, like what is normal, you know, quote, unquote, what is, you know, outside of the norm? And if you want to be in an in group, you know, what are kind of the things you need to pick up? And, and, you know, the same thing sort of applies to brands as well.
Jen Clinehens 3:44
So you think about, I mean, obviously, an overused example, but Apple, so Apple is a brand, I think, is really great, maybe less so now, but you know, the Steve Jobs heyday into the last like, yeah, 10 years, they've been really great about sort of signalling what it means to be an apple consumer. Right? You're more creative, you might be a creative professional. You're somebody who cares about design, you're somebody who probably makes a little bit more money than average. And what are sort of the social norms of being an apple consumer, as well as thinking about a product like the iPhone, which benefited quite a bit from social proof. In fact, I'll back up even more so the iPod really benefited from social proof. So this is a million years ago. I'm old enough to remember some listeners may not be but when the iPod came out, it was a huge deal because like the Zune existed and there was some like digital, you know, media products, but the interesting thing about the iPod of course, was the design and it came with white earbuds, you know, they go in your ear, they're attached with a white cable, but that was really unique for that time. Everybody else had the black head, you know, headphones that go over there kind of like wired. I mean, you would get these just terrible headphones with like this Sony Walkman or whatever.
Jen Clinehens 5:01
And what happened was one or two people would buy an iPod, they get on the subway, or they go to a college campus. And people would be like, Oh, wow, those headphones are really cool. Oh, that person must have an iPod. And then pretty soon, they're like, Oh, well, I want to you know, that's signalling that this person is like, you know, a little affluent, a little, you know, innovative, a little creative, I want to be like that person. So pretty soon, you would look up on, you know, like, the tea in Boston, where I was, or, you know, college campus, or whatever, and everybody would have these white earbuds that you could only get with an iPod at that time, obviously, now, you know, a million different companies have ripped that off. But at the time, it was really like, a signal of something. And before you knew it, you were the one who was like, in the outside group, whereas before you were, you know, you and everybody else was basically like, Oh, I wish I could be in that special Apple club. But then it started to function as a form of social proof in that most people have those white earbuds. So you can see how it works in a number of different ways. Because I think, when most people think about social proof, they think about these, you know, messages, like maybe, you know,
Jen Clinehens 6:06
McDonald's is a good example. So for years and years, they would count how many burgers they had sold and put it up on the sign. So you know, 50 million sold a billion sold 5 billion now it just says billions and billions because they stopped counting us. We would be terrified if we knew how many McDonald's burgers people had eaten, if we counted, but if you think about the beginnings of McDonald's as a brand, you know, it's one of the first like major successful franchises. You know, it started I believe, in California. And then eventually they moved that headquarters to Chicago. First one was in California, I think. And, you know, they started to do sort of that franchising thing. And if a McDonald's rolled into town, maybe you had heard of it, but you know, it wasn't really around like mass media. But you would look at it and go like, Oh, it says they've sold a million burgers. Well, I don't know anything about burgers. But I know million is a lot. And I know if a million people ordered something, it can't be bad. Yeah. So why don't I you know, go into this McDonald's and try it. And then, you know, eventually you would have things like lines outside the restaurant functioning as a form of social proof. Oh, well, you know, there's a lot of people waiting to go into this McDonald's, it must be good. So social proof can work, I think in a lot of different ways. And it's a really interesting one to explore when it comes to things like getting people to adopt behaviours, or, I mean, to a certain extent, beliefs as well, with things like social norming,
Ruth Dale 7:23
I think, like you say, so kind of a popular, probably something that everyone listening is aware of, is a bit of an extension onto the McDonnells. But newsletters, you know, you'll often see Oh, join 18,000 other people who sign up to this newsletters. And it's used very commonly by people because it works. Because it's signalling that people like you who do your job, or read this, because it's helpful. So I love that extension into actual other uses of social proof, because I think it's really underused. And I think, like, you just tease out brilliantly about the difference between social norm and the social proof and the signalling. So to think about, actually, how am I signalling to my audience, that everyone else is doing this? And then that has kind of widens it out for you a lot more, doesn't it? Yeah. And moves it beyond just kind of it's not clumsy messaging, because it's brilliant, you know, celebrating, you know, that so many people are doing the one thing you're hoping you know, I'm reading a weekly newsletter, but actually, there are other more creative approaches as well. And the one I loved in your episode was the canned laughter. So please, can you share with us how and why is canned laughter social proof?
Jen Clinehens 8:48
Yes. So, I mean, again, maybe we can take a moment to explain can laughter because again, I feel old now. But I'm like I'm trying to think like when is the last time we had a sitcom that was really popular that I can laughter but the idea is you have these people that they have recorded the production company or you know, the studio, whoever it might be laughing at something usually in a raucous kind of way, like, oh my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever heard. You know, and it's a lot of people it's, you know, men, women, it's like, you know, it's just sounds like a crowd having a great time or great reaction to a joke. And with traditionally with the sitcom was sort of that three cameras structure, right. So like friends, or, you know, I'll use an American example of Seinfeld.
Jen Clinehens 9:26
I know, it's not as popular in the UK, but to me, it's very popular. And they might have a live audience. In fact, they usually did. But they would also have canned laughter to supplement the live audiences reaction or sometimes substitute the audience's reaction. Because if you tell a joke that you've committed to that you can't change. You can't just let it kind of die, right? Yeah, you have to give a little bit of hay other people think this is funny. And they think it's funny. So why don't you think it's funny you should, you know, kind of laugh or you know, laugh along with this canned laughter and in fact that there's an example In the podcast episode that I did, where I'm gonna forget who did it now off the top of my head, but somebody went through a bunch of the sitcoms and remove the canned laughter from jokes. And you hear it with the canned laughter at first, and you're like, Oh, that's really funny. You know, like, oh, yeah, that is funny. And then they take the canned laughter away, and you're like, This isn't funny at all. Why?
Jen Clinehens 10:17
Why am I I'm not going to laugh at this. This is awful, you know? Yeah. And it's because, you know, studies have found actually, that when studios use this canned laughter, people will laugh harder, they will laugh longer. And that's why it's because you know, everyone around them is saying, Oh, this is funny. And because you either want to, you know, join in, or it's just something in our nature, the social side of our nature, that makes us say, like, oh, yeah, well, they think it's funny. I must think it's funny, too. And you sort of, you know, chuckle along. Yeah, I mean, I find that to be really, really interesting, because obviously, it's something that developed as the sitcom kind of art form was developing as well. And it can, it can help make, you know, a show much more popular than it would have been otherwise. And it can kind of help you know, the, the reaction to these individual episodes or shows themselves.
Ruth Dale 11:05
Yeah, because I think it's like you say, it's a very automatic response, you know, to laugh along with it. And even though you might start laughing, and even though you might think I know, this is canned laughter, you know, some of it in friends, for examples, it does, it sounds fake, you know, you're not even pretending. But you still laugh, you still there's something in you, even knowing that it's fake, you join in, and it feels better to join in. I just think that's an incredible example of not when you're in marketing, not overthinking the use of these tactics and thinking, oh, you know, they're outdated, or I can't use social proof too much. I think it's a really in our area. Anyway, really underused tactic. I think we overthink people's responses, and we think people will be more rational or they won't like it. And actually is a real basic isn't a human psychological response to want to be part of the crowd.
Jen Clinehens 12:08
Yeah, yeah. And especially because I mean, so I would consider myself an introvert. Right? So I had an a lot of fellow introverts say things like, well, not me, because you know, I'm different. I'm not, I'm not like, you know, everybody else, you know, they're, they're kind of like, in their social groups and things. I'm off doing things on my own. But actually, research has found that specifically Nielsen research fell into that social proof is by far the most trusted and effective form of advertising. So when you see somebody say, like, hey, I really enjoyed this product, and it's somebody you know, and trust, you're much more likely to act on that, which I think, you know, you see that on places like tick tock, you know, if you have an influencer, you follow, you've got a little bit of a parasocial relationship.
Jen Clinehens 12:49
You're like, Oh, yes, of course, I should do that. And I think it's, it's we're saying as well, that social proof is even more effective. The studies have shown in like, developing economies, so you, you can rely even more on social proof if you were like, outside of kind of Western, you know, like, sort of the traditional, like marketing economies that like, you know, argue with, because there's, you know, there's more sort of concerns around, you know, like, like, what is marketing and isn't manipulating me. And also, just people, you know, tend to be closer, like, in these, you know, familiar type relationships. And that's an interesting point, you know, for marketers to sort of log in their brain. But also, it's, you know, people, people trust people that they know, more than they trust people, they don't know, it's not to say that like a celebrity endorsing something, or saying, you know, 99% of Americans do this isn't really effective, but it's the most effective when you have kind of that personal connection.
Ruth Dale 13:45
Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right. I mean, social media wouldn't be as impactful if it is if the social that you know, need for connection, and finding people like you. And I think in the absence of the general overview, but often the Western world people's sort of immediate family structures are very different, they haven't got the extended family support so much, people are more likely to have moved or, you know, moved and travelled or settled away from immediate support network. So um, I do think people are looking outward a lot more than you potentially traditionally would have done when, you know, perhaps a lot of the family were living very local. Of course, some people still have those benefits. But I think in our culture, it is very common to travel. And so social proof becomes even more important, the more uncertain you are. So if you aren't making a decision, even at that very, very beginning stage, when you're just mulling it around in your head, what's the first thing you do you ask someone you trust? And then in the absence of someone you trust someone, you know? Yeah,
Jen Clinehens 14:48
exactly. Well, it's interesting because I was remembering when I moved to Australia, which was very different. I mean, it's the first time I had moved abroad from the US, and I moved to Sydney and I had like one connection and Not in Sydney, but had moved to Sydney and it was kind of giving me advice. You know, this is the best. Like, you know, the phone service, this is the best neighbourhood to live in this is. And I was so discombobulated because I had zero connections there, no friends, I was just kind of going into new job. I just did everything. They said, I didn't even question, oh, maybe I should, you know, compare these mobile phone plans. I was like, No, forget it. Like this person says it's the right thing. There's so much else like kind of taxing on my brain at the minute, I'm gonna lean 100% on this person that I know and, you know, mostly trust for, you know, brand recommendations and things and just do what they say.
Ruth Dale 15:38
Well, that was helpful, it takes away the thinking part doesn't there's like, No, they've done the thinking, I'm just going to trust them now. And the more cognitively overloaded you are, obviously the more likely you are and that really extends into for us, you know, a lot of us work in health and public health really extends into if you're ill, or we're having to work through quite complex information, you will lean towards the authorities, I say authorities, as you know, the expert, to give you the correct information as much as possible, because it will kind of reduces the need. And then you'll look at the support groups. So I don't know, it feels like something that we in our space could potentially use so much more. And one thing you said in your episode was about I know, you look at a lot of customer mapping, but it's that there was something a quote from someone saying the younger people are, the more likely they are to ask other people for recommendations. So the more likely they are to seek opinions. And I think, I don't know, when you do your mapping. And when you're looking at using social proof or customer proof across a decision making journey? Should it be all spread out? Or should you be weighing up, you know, putting most of your messaging at that very beginning stage when people are thinking of say, for example, sexual health, and we're always trying to reach young people trying to get them to take chlamydia tests, or, you know, go and buy some condoms, or whatever it is. And of course, the younger they are, the more likely they are to ask for recommendations. And it feels like social proof should be should it be weighted to the beginning? Or should it just be throughout the whole thing? Is there a good?
Jen Clinehens 17:20
I mean, it's a good question. Like, I think it always depends on the context, it depends on who we're talking to you and all that. I mean, I think one thing to say about you know, specifically public health is to be careful and to test social proof and social norming. Because it can have a tendency to backfire. So, you know, there was a study, I'm probably going to butcher the summary of it here. But essentially, what you need to know is they were trying to reduce binge drinking on college campuses in the US. So huge problem, you get these people out of the family home, and they go and they go to a frat house and everybody is just you know, doing keg stands.
Ruth Dale 17:56
On the team instead, all the movie Yes, actually happen. And yes, I
Jen Clinehens 18:00
happen to drink out of the red solo cups, just like the movies. But, yeah, beer pong, the whole thing. But you know, there's this like, attitude or social norm where binge drinking becomes normal. And so as a as a way to, you know, stop the binge drinking, they were putting up messages around, you know, like things like, you know, 85% of people or 85% of the students is on this, are students on this college campus will binge drink at some point during their college career. And everybody will look at something like that and say, why it's normal, then I'm doing exactly what everybody else is doing. And it wasn't until they flipped the sort of messaging to say, you know, something, along the lines of like, 60% of students feel peer pressured to binge drink, and they wouldn't do it. If their friends weren't egging them on, then that's they started to see some behaviour change, and I'm summarising the study, I'll have to find it with the specific numbers, but it's just sort of rules of thumb here. But it's the same with you know, sustainability messages as well. You know, there's experiments where, you know, they'll put up signage in a supermarket to, to see if they can get people to buy sustainable seafood over, you know, I guess non sustainable seafood. And they, if they have messages like 85% Did you know that 85% of the people that come into this grocery store, don't buy sustainable seafood, everyone will look at that and go, Oh, great. I'm just like everybody else, and they'll actually buy more seafood, but it won't necessarily be sustainable. So again, you know, test, especially social norming can kind of backfire. Because if you say a bad behaviour is performed by the majority of people, you're gonna get in trouble because you're going to get a bunch of people saying, Oh, well, I just I guess I'm normal then. Just like everybody else.
Ruth Dale 19:37
I promise this is not planned. I just want anyone listening to know this because we've been obsessed with this gym. So everything you just said because it's a real it's like the biggest mistake we make and it's constant and it's everywhere in health. You know, we always say this amount of people don't turn up for their appointments. Oh, giving people a you know permission to not turn up their appointment. You know, we are really, really guilty of this, like you say we, we call it negative social proof in our world, but essentially, we are just reinforcing what we don't want people to do. Giving them a permission. Or you know, as you were saying, You're not giving them the cues to go and do something that you don't want them to do. So I love that, that's absolutely fantastic. So when we use social proof is the same as you know, making sure that we're actually leading to the behaviour we want them to do, which can be quite hard in public health, because often not everyone is doing what you want and wouldn't be a public health problem if everyone was doing the desired behaviour. Yeah,
Jen Clinehens 20:38
well, what's interesting is you can look at it, you know, in different ways. So, you know, with something like smoking, you know, there were a lot of, you know, ads that ran in the US these anti smoking ads that actually the tobacco industry had to pay for as a part of the big settlements that they did, where it was more about the social consequences of smoking. So it would be like, you know, this is in the 90s, I think of the early 2000s. So it's maybe not as politically correct today. But it would be like women saying things like, I would never make out with someone whose breasts smells like smoke, you know, things like that, where it's like, oh, well, all of a sudden, there's social consequences for people that smoke, or, you know, people would be out on the first date, and somebody will be kind of hacking up along, you know, the, the, the woman or the man will be like, Oh, disgusting, like, I don't want to be near you. But it's an interesting thought, isn't it?
Jen Clinehens 21:21
You know, because I think sometimes for those social norming messages, where we're talking about how they backfire, it's choices and behaviour. And I guess, to a certain extent, like morality, can be very grey areas. And so we often will look to what are the majority of people doing to say, oh, that's, that's fine. That's okay. You know, because hey, everybody else does it. Because it's not always clear, you know, whether that's a quote unquote, right thing or wrong thing, or, you know, whatever it might be. So, using, you know, the right type of social proof in those grey areas can help sort of steer people in, I guess, quote, unquote, better directions than trying to get people to make an independent decision about like, you know, skipping an NHS appointment like, is, is that right or wrong? I think if you put people in front of, you know, on a stage and ask them, they would probably say, Oh, that's very wrong. But if you get them alone in their head, they will probably say, like, it's not really hurting anybody, is it?
Jen Clinehens 22:16
So, you know, I feel like I can't make it today. So I'll just skip it, it'll be okay. You know, they're kind of left to their own devices to make a judgement about whether that's, like, good or bad. And so in those moments, I think those are great moments where, you know, social proof can kind of step in and say, you know, hey, you're about to make a bad decision. Here's, you know, why we think, you know, most people are making a different decision, or more people should be making a different decision, or it's actually, you know, normal to make the good decision, but you may not think that it is. So, to your circling back to your point. I mean, I think when you do these customer journey maps, and you're kind of looking at where people are thinking and the barriers that they're coming up against, you know, any point of indecision, or sort of grey area, where people are kind of saying, Oh, should I shouldn't I, I don't know, introducing that social proof element or that social norming element to make them see, oh, well, yeah, most people think this is good, or most people think this is bad can help sort of steer them in one direction or the other. You're not making the decision for them. Yeah. But you're definitely giving them the tools to say, Okay, do I want to be in the group or out of the group? Do we want to go with what everybody else is doing? Or do I want to go a different direction?
Ruth Dale 23:27
Gosh, I'm sorry, I'm just writing all of this down as you speak. That's absolutely fantastic. It's such a lovely way of explaining it as well. Look for the points of indecision, rather than the timeliness. Well, I suppose you know, not instead of by any means, if there's a clear, you know, points in your decision making journey. But also, yeah, just just queuing up to be part of the group, you know, not underestimating the power and the pool of the need to be part of the group. And always an almost like, take the decision making away reducing the feeling of risk and uncertainty, isn't it giving people the confidence to make that right decision?
Jen Clinehens 24:07
It's interesting, too, because, you know, I think sometimes you can pair different points of social proof to kind of make an interesting argument that's more convincing to people. So I'll give you an example. I worked with an app disaster preparedness app in the US called Percy. And what we found through research was that I think it's 71% of Americans do not have a emergency preparedness plan. So you live in California, you know, there's going to be wildfires, but you're kind of like, I'll figure it out. When it happens. I figured out when the fire is at my doorstep, you know what I mean? But, in in these emergency situations, over 90% of rescues are done by friends and family, people in the community because first responders either can't get to you, or you know, first responders haven't gotten to your area yet. So you have to like you know, kind of help everybody along. So that was an interesting, you know, experiment to kind of pair those two points together. More than 70% of you are not prepared, but more than 90% of you are going to have to rescue potentially friends, neighbours family. So doesn't it make sense to kind of short this gap with, you know, putting together a disaster preparedness plan? So again, I think it's all about context and seeing how people react to different points of social proof. Because if you just told people 71% of Americans don't have a disaster preparedness plan, they'd be like, Okay, great. Nobody else is doing this either. I mean, I talked to people who feel like, I'm laughing, it's not funny at all. But like, just the thought of it is crazy people who lived through earthquakes who had had their house burned down, who, who still did not have a plan, even though they had seen the consequences of not having a plan. So it's really interesting to kind of like look at, you know, what is actually persuasive to these people? And what is not and yeah, it does make a difference. Did
Ruth Dale 25:50
you find out Jen, what was persuasive? What, what was the blocker for them? Why didn't you think because we don't have very extreme weather over here. So not, you know, sound horrific wildfires and things to think. But then, like, I suppose people, so yeah. What? Did they get one in the end?
Jen Clinehens 26:11
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of folks like, you know, like I said, they would live through these disasters, it was just kind of this thought of, it'll never happen to me. Or if they have lived through a disaster, what happened once, it'll never happen again, the chances are so small, that it's a giant faff. And I don't want to do it. And then coupled with Oh, I feel like you know, the chances that like a tornado is gonna hit my house are so small, it's a tornadoes like this, you know, half a mile wide, we get one like, six times a year, it probably won't happen to me. But I think in these areas where it's more, it's more urgent to people. So like, I lived in Texas, and North Dakota. So Tornado Alley, if anybody's familiar. So you always, you know, in the summer, the spring, you would constantly, you know, be at school, and we'd have to do tornado drills, we'd be at home and a tornado would hit, you know, 2am. And the sirens would go off, and we'd have to run down to the basement and stuff. And we always had a plan, I think, because it was just a part of our everyday lives. We saw it all the time, where it's like, if you think about earthquakes in California, I mean, how often does a terrible earthquake happen? Like not, that often really doesn't mean you shouldn't be paired. But I think people just don't get into the routine of this is something that is a threat that could happen at any time. So you know, maybe I need to at least have a plan to like, have some water or run down to the basement or, you know, whatever the plan might be, for that particular natural disaster.
Ruth Dale 27:31
Oh, my gosh, this is just brilliant. We've taken such an interesting turn. Thank you so much, Jen, for coming on. Honestly, man. I have to admit, I've been watching young Sheldon and they have loads of tornadoes. I did not realise there's so many tornadoes in Texas.
Jen Clinehens 27:48
Yeah, there's a few. Yeah, so Wow.
Ruth Dale 27:52
I happens to happen quite a bit. You can tell my only real experience of America is via Netflix. One day, I'll get over there one day,
Jen Clinehens 28:02
but thank you, hopefully, not during tornado. Yeah,
Ruth Dale 28:06
I know to check now. But no, seriously, you have just this amazing, incredible way of explaining behavioural science. And then I always feel so inspired about ideas. As you've been talking, I've been thinking about projects we're working on. So I'm hoping everyone listening also is feeling very inspired. Thank you so so much, honestly, are just so superb at this before you go. Could you please we ask everyone this recommend one book for the listeners. And we have been saying one book that changed your life. But we're relaxing a bit on that now. Because?
Speaker 1 28:43
Oh, okay. I will say the book that I've just picked up that I found really interesting is a book called unreasonable hospitality about customer experiences in the restaurant industry. And I'm not going to lie, I found out about this book because of the bear, which is a show on FX about these people running a restaurant. And they picked up the book. And it's about it's all about, like how they do customer service at these crazy like Michelin starred restaurants and things. And there was a, I don't want to give spoilers to the show. But
Jen Clinehens 29:14
there was a story that the guy who wrote the book, I'm going to remember his name, I've written it down. hopefully I'm pronouncing it correctly Will Guidara I believe this is how you say his last name, where they were talking about it. They sort of translated a version of this into the show, where you know, in the show, they overheard someone at a table who was there in Chicago, and they're gonna they've been sightseeing in Chicago, they're in this restaurant. And they're all like, oh, I can't believe I didn't get to get any Chicago deep dish pizza. Like I did this whole trip. It's the only thing I want to try but I gotta get on the plane tomorrow. And the waiter kind of overhears them and he goes to the staff and he's like, Hey, let's send somebody down the street and they go find them and played up Chicago deep dish style pizza just because they had overheard them.
Jen Clinehens 29:57
And I think the actual story that that's based on was like A hot dog in New York or something. But it's just interesting to think about, you know, what is kind of white glove customer experience? What is white glove? What does that mean to be like, really surprising and delighting a customer? So I think we talk about that a lot in marketing, like, what's something interesting and cool we could do.
Jen Clinehens 30:17
But it's very rare that you hear a story, we're like, Wow, that's amazing. You know, like, that's really something above and beyond, I was listening to podcasts the other day talking about, they had like a CEO, I believe, of a hotel chain, who was doing some training with a consultant to try to get their hotel staff to give white glove service. And he said, The sad thing is to this consultant is that almost nobody has, who's working here has experienced white glove service, they don't know what to expect, because they've never flown first class. They don't know that you get a hot towel, they don't know that, you know, people come up and give you champagne before the plane takes off. To be fair, I don't know that either.
Jen Clinehens 30:56
Because I don't fly first class that often but I thought it was a it was a great point is, you know, how can we expect, you know, staff and things like that to be given good customer service, if in a lot of cases, they've never experienced that level of customer service. And so this book, I think, was a good kind of, you know, waited for me to think about, you know, what is superior customer experience or customer service? And I think that the lessons are very translatable for any industry, really. I
Ruth Dale 31:23
think sometimes it's better to read about other industries, it allows your brain to take on the ideas and to get a bit creative. You're not like in that polarised position where you're thinking right must do this or how you know, you don't take it too seriously. Yeah, no, I think that's a wonderful idea. I keep thinking while you were talking, I kept thinking of Gordon Ramsay. You know, because he does those that restaurant shows but basically yells at everyone's I'm not sure if that is quite white glove customer service. I'll get the check out the book and the bath. Oh, well, thank you so much for coming on. It's been absolutely fabulous talking to you. Yeah.
Jen Clinehens 32:06
Awesome. I was a pleasure as always had a great time. Thank you for inviting me. Oh, no,
Ruth Dale 32:10
my pleasure. And everyone, please do go over to choice hacking.com And check out Jen's podcast. It's brilliant. Take care. Thanks. Thank you so much for listening. We're so delighted you joined us and if you got any value out of this at all, or even if you just simply had a little chuckle. Please do share it with anyone you think it may benefit